You are putting amazing effort into this and I am grateful. My Chinese is very rusty. I have read the Hawkes translation twice and love it.
It would be even better for me if you added more pinyin to the translation notes, since I understand some Chinese but certainly not enough to read the novel. You write: "好, hao, means “good” and is one of the first words any Chinese student learns. 了, which should be read as liao here, can mean either “to end / to finish” (i.e. 了結, 完了) or “to understand / to clarify” (i.e. 明了, 了然). And, if you look back at the chant, you’ll see both of those characters come up at the end of the first two lines: “世人都曉神仙好，惟有功名忘不了” and so on."
Shìrén dōu xiǎo shénxiān hǎo, wéiyǒu gōngmíng wàng bùliǎo. OK, I got that from Google Translate and can't confirm the tones.
It takes me ages to look up all the characters. And you write that your audience do not have to be fluent Chinese readers. But just giving the characters without the pinyin seems to be intended for an audience that does not include me.
One more note, and kind of a teaser for what I'm putting together (which I should have published by mid-May): the actual dialogue in Dream of the Red Chamber also shows a lot of influence from other Chinese dialects, which is fascinating.
I lived in northeast China for a few years and have a bit of familiarity with the local dialect. As a result, when I read the original version of Dream of the Red Chamber, "Granny Liu" (劉姥姥) speaks in a way that seems really natural and familiar to me.
In contrast, Lin Daiyu's speech contains clear evidence of influence of the Wu dialect, most particularly Suzhouese (蘇州話). This is because she grew up in Suzhou.
I'll show a few examples when we get to the post. The fascinating thing about Cao Xueqin is that he demonstrates familiarity with a number of Chinese dialects, and yet is able to write in a way that everybody can understand.
One thing that we need to keep in mind is that "standard Mandarin" or "standard Chinese" is really a product of the early 20th century. Cao Xueqin's poetry is largely composed with a heavy Middle Chinese influence, in particular the rhyme schemes. His classical sections fit the rigorous grammatical rules of classical Chinese: we'll see in about a week or so how Jia Yucun uses that rhetoric in a way that is kind of comical. And the spoken language reflects a number of different dialectical influences.
The more you dive into this book, the deeper it gets. It's uniquely Chinese in that sense: no other work I am aware of more fully reflects the full depth and breadth of the Chinese language.
The biggest issue with trying to stick pinyin everywhere is that there is a LOT of pinyin to insert. And it's unfortunately only going to get more difficult from here.
Part of the issue is figuring out the best way to convey the meaning of the poems instead of just their form. In the case of 了 (liǎo) the pronunciation actually does make a difference; however, in many of the poems we'll encounter, the original pronunciation isn't quite as important as the actual meaning behind the poem.
There's also a bit more going on behind the scenes than I've talked about. For example, classical Chinese poetry utilized a rhyming scheme that largely doesn't exist in modern Mandarin. This is the 平 (píng) and 仄 (zè) system. You can learn a little bit more about it in this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_pattern It relates to the original four tones of Middle Chinese — 平, 上, 去, and 入, none of which really are present in the modern language.
It's a pretty cool system, and you can actually deconstruct the vast majority of the poems in 紅樓夢 to figure out if they fit certain patterns or not. However, it's not always easy to figure that part out — and it's not always the case that being able to identify the original "rhyme scheme" actually makes a difference in the interpretation of the poem.
Things become even more complicated when you realize the depth of Chinese dialects and the impact that has had on poetry. If you try to read old Tang poems in something like Taiwanese Hokkien or Cantonese, you'll find that there's a natural rhyme to many of them that simply doesn't exist in modern Mandarin. This is because those dialects have kept the original tonal rules intact. In fact, though learners of Chinese tend to think of those dialects as simply country speech, the truth is that they're quite conservative linguistically. Of course, the problem is figuring out whether this really makes a difference or not.
My hope is that I can point out places where the pronunciation actually makes a difference and is important, but try to keep a lot of the more boring and academic details out. You're correct that the 好了歌 gets its name from the words 好 and 了 that exist at the end of every line — and it's probably worth nothing that they both rhyme in a modern sense (hǎo and liǎo). Both words have multiple meanings: 好 can be read as "hào" if it means "to like," and 了 is famously "le" when it is used as a perfective aspect particle or to demonstrate change of state, something that does come up in Dream of the Red Chamber from time to time. So, yeah, I can certainly appreciate the confusion.
Anyway, if I understand right, 好 and 了 would both be classified as 平 in the old system because they both have the 上 tone, based on what is listed on https://ytenx.org/ . This is probably not a particularly helpful resource for you, though, since it's 100% in Chinese and assumes some knowledge of how original classical Chinese rhyming dictionaries work.
If it's any consolation, I'm planning on starting up a YouTube channel connected with this project in the near future. It might be helpful to hear how certain things are pronounced, especially when it comes to some of these poems.
There are also audiobook versions of Dream of the Red Chamber available. I've got two in the Member's Area that you can download, and there are a few resources on YouTube as well. These are all in modern Mandarin, and can kind of give you a feel for what the book "sounds" like.
I'll also try to stick in pinyin a bit more frequently when applicable. I'm hoping, though, to get by without diving too deep into the somewhat confusing and complicated world of how Chinese poetry "rhymes" and is "supposed" to sound...
Thanks again for the comment! Apologies for the long ramble.
Apologies — I got this wrong. Both 好 and 了 should be characterized as "仄聲" ("oblique" tones), not 平 ("flat").
You bring up a really good point, Margaret. I'm going to draft a post to try to explain some of this stuff in a few weeks. When it comes to the "Hao-Liao" song here the modern rhyme works — and it works for a couple of other poems. However, one thing to keep in mind is that Pinyin didn't exist in Cao Xueqin's day, that certain words likely had different pronunciations, and that he wasn't thinking in terms of the modern four tones.
Thanks very much for both speedy replies, Daniel. Actually I can't remember seeing ChineseConverter.com before and it solves my problem, as I can get a block of characters followed by a block of pinyin, and that helps me understand what you are referring to, e.g. when you write "通靈 could mean a number of things. ..." - I don't feel comfortable unless I can say the term to myself.
I take your point about pinyin not always being appropriate or easy. I wasn't even thinking of the poetry or that the modern Mandarin is not appropriate. I have heard of the 平 (píng) and 仄 (zè) before but how far I will get into the details of the poetry I can't tell - it might be too time-consuming.
Hi Daniel,
You are putting amazing effort into this and I am grateful. My Chinese is very rusty. I have read the Hawkes translation twice and love it.
It would be even better for me if you added more pinyin to the translation notes, since I understand some Chinese but certainly not enough to read the novel. You write: "好, hao, means “good” and is one of the first words any Chinese student learns. 了, which should be read as liao here, can mean either “to end / to finish” (i.e. 了結, 完了) or “to understand / to clarify” (i.e. 明了, 了然). And, if you look back at the chant, you’ll see both of those characters come up at the end of the first two lines: “世人都曉神仙好，惟有功名忘不了” and so on."
Shìrén dōu xiǎo shénxiān hǎo, wéiyǒu gōngmíng wàng bùliǎo. OK, I got that from Google Translate and can't confirm the tones.
It takes me ages to look up all the characters. And you write that your audience do not have to be fluent Chinese readers. But just giving the characters without the pinyin seems to be intended for an audience that does not include me.
Margaret
Hi again Margaret,
One more note, and kind of a teaser for what I'm putting together (which I should have published by mid-May): the actual dialogue in Dream of the Red Chamber also shows a lot of influence from other Chinese dialects, which is fascinating.
I lived in northeast China for a few years and have a bit of familiarity with the local dialect. As a result, when I read the original version of Dream of the Red Chamber, "Granny Liu" (劉姥姥) speaks in a way that seems really natural and familiar to me.
In contrast, Lin Daiyu's speech contains clear evidence of influence of the Wu dialect, most particularly Suzhouese (蘇州話). This is because she grew up in Suzhou.
I'll show a few examples when we get to the post. The fascinating thing about Cao Xueqin is that he demonstrates familiarity with a number of Chinese dialects, and yet is able to write in a way that everybody can understand.
One thing that we need to keep in mind is that "standard Mandarin" or "standard Chinese" is really a product of the early 20th century. Cao Xueqin's poetry is largely composed with a heavy Middle Chinese influence, in particular the rhyme schemes. His classical sections fit the rigorous grammatical rules of classical Chinese: we'll see in about a week or so how Jia Yucun uses that rhetoric in a way that is kind of comical. And the spoken language reflects a number of different dialectical influences.
The more you dive into this book, the deeper it gets. It's uniquely Chinese in that sense: no other work I am aware of more fully reflects the full depth and breadth of the Chinese language.
Thanks for the note, Margaret!
The biggest issue with trying to stick pinyin everywhere is that there is a LOT of pinyin to insert. And it's unfortunately only going to get more difficult from here.
There are a few places where you can get automatic conversion from Chinese characters to pinyin — for example, this website can be somewhat helpful: https://www.chineseconverter.com/en/convert/chinese-to-pinyin
Part of the issue is figuring out the best way to convey the meaning of the poems instead of just their form. In the case of 了 (liǎo) the pronunciation actually does make a difference; however, in many of the poems we'll encounter, the original pronunciation isn't quite as important as the actual meaning behind the poem.
There's also a bit more going on behind the scenes than I've talked about. For example, classical Chinese poetry utilized a rhyming scheme that largely doesn't exist in modern Mandarin. This is the 平 (píng) and 仄 (zè) system. You can learn a little bit more about it in this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_pattern It relates to the original four tones of Middle Chinese — 平, 上, 去, and 入, none of which really are present in the modern language.
It's a pretty cool system, and you can actually deconstruct the vast majority of the poems in 紅樓夢 to figure out if they fit certain patterns or not. However, it's not always easy to figure that part out — and it's not always the case that being able to identify the original "rhyme scheme" actually makes a difference in the interpretation of the poem.
Things become even more complicated when you realize the depth of Chinese dialects and the impact that has had on poetry. If you try to read old Tang poems in something like Taiwanese Hokkien or Cantonese, you'll find that there's a natural rhyme to many of them that simply doesn't exist in modern Mandarin. This is because those dialects have kept the original tonal rules intact. In fact, though learners of Chinese tend to think of those dialects as simply country speech, the truth is that they're quite conservative linguistically. Of course, the problem is figuring out whether this really makes a difference or not.
My hope is that I can point out places where the pronunciation actually makes a difference and is important, but try to keep a lot of the more boring and academic details out. You're correct that the 好了歌 gets its name from the words 好 and 了 that exist at the end of every line — and it's probably worth nothing that they both rhyme in a modern sense (hǎo and liǎo). Both words have multiple meanings: 好 can be read as "hào" if it means "to like," and 了 is famously "le" when it is used as a perfective aspect particle or to demonstrate change of state, something that does come up in Dream of the Red Chamber from time to time. So, yeah, I can certainly appreciate the confusion.
Anyway, if I understand right, 好 and 了 would both be classified as 平 in the old system because they both have the 上 tone, based on what is listed on https://ytenx.org/ . This is probably not a particularly helpful resource for you, though, since it's 100% in Chinese and assumes some knowledge of how original classical Chinese rhyming dictionaries work.
If it's any consolation, I'm planning on starting up a YouTube channel connected with this project in the near future. It might be helpful to hear how certain things are pronounced, especially when it comes to some of these poems.
There are also audiobook versions of Dream of the Red Chamber available. I've got two in the Member's Area that you can download, and there are a few resources on YouTube as well. These are all in modern Mandarin, and can kind of give you a feel for what the book "sounds" like.
I'll also try to stick in pinyin a bit more frequently when applicable. I'm hoping, though, to get by without diving too deep into the somewhat confusing and complicated world of how Chinese poetry "rhymes" and is "supposed" to sound...
Thanks again for the comment! Apologies for the long ramble.
Apologies — I got this wrong. Both 好 and 了 should be characterized as "仄聲" ("oblique" tones), not 平 ("flat").
You bring up a really good point, Margaret. I'm going to draft a post to try to explain some of this stuff in a few weeks. When it comes to the "Hao-Liao" song here the modern rhyme works — and it works for a couple of other poems. However, one thing to keep in mind is that Pinyin didn't exist in Cao Xueqin's day, that certain words likely had different pronunciations, and that he wasn't thinking in terms of the modern four tones.
Thanks very much for both speedy replies, Daniel. Actually I can't remember seeing ChineseConverter.com before and it solves my problem, as I can get a block of characters followed by a block of pinyin, and that helps me understand what you are referring to, e.g. when you write "通靈 could mean a number of things. ..." - I don't feel comfortable unless I can say the term to myself.
I take your point about pinyin not always being appropriate or easy. I wasn't even thinking of the poetry or that the modern Mandarin is not appropriate. I have heard of the 平 (píng) and 仄 (zè) before but how far I will get into the details of the poetry I can't tell - it might be too time-consuming.